U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles

On 04/14/2012 12:17 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim > wrote in :
>
>> On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> ... On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>>>> vehicles
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>>>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>>>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>>>> "drivers" just "operators."
>>>>
>>>> nate
>>>> ##################################
>>>>
>>>> Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
>>> Except that most passenger cars are not intended for "performance
>>> driving".
>>
>> holding a car on a hill is not "performance driving". i don't know
>> where you're from, but hereabouts, driver's ed teaches you to left
>> foot brake and apply right foot gas when pulling away on a hill.
>> [indeed, that's why the brake pedal is wide enough for two feet on
>> automatics - in case you hadn't noticed.] kinda hard to do with the
>> stooooopidity envisaged above.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Plus, the override would only occur at full throttle acceleration and
>>> braking, so what specific situation demands full throttle accleration
>>> and braking on main thoroughfare roads and highways, not test tracks?
>>
>> there's no way you can assume a throttle is going to stick at just one
>> position. absolutely no way.
>>
>>
>
> if you need to hillhold,that is what the handbrake is for.

that's what i do - because my car is equipped for it, but on cars with
ratcheting foot operated parking brakes, you can't do that.


> Left-foot braking is a BAD habit. you learn to use the same foot all the
> time for the same function,so that in an emergency,you automatically
> react the right way,and you cna't left-foot brake with a stick shift.

i personally agree, but left foot braking for hill holding is in
driver's ed. you'll therefore never convince the proles otherwise. and
you'll need to convince our "regulators" who continue to allow
manufacture of vehicles specifically to be left foot braked with
double-width [both feet] brake pedals on every automatic and who don't
insist that vehicles have hand operated parking brakes.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 04/14/2012 11:17 AM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
<snip troll>

you're about three years behind the times, troll. the whole thing has
been exhaustively investigated, including the "black box", including by
the nhtsa. no vehicle problem other than floor mat. and frankly, if
some retard driver doesn't notice the freakin' mat's in the way and
doesn't reach down and move it, that's /still/ not a vehicle problem.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
> On 04/14/2012 11:17 AM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> <snip troll>
>
> you're about three years behind the times, troll. the whole thing has
> been exhaustively investigated, including the "black box", including by
> the nhtsa. no vehicle problem other than floor mat. and frankly, if some
> retard driver doesn't notice the freakin' mat's in the way and doesn't
> reach down and move it, that's /still/ not a vehicle problem.
>
Cite? As in provide a link proving it.

On 2012-04-14, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. > wrote:
> "Brent" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> [snip...]
>
>> Even if numbers of vehicles on the road do not decline, without the
>> automatic transmission being in the majority people will change their
>> driving habits making such conditions less common. People avoid
>> discomfort and will adjust their driving appropiately.
>>
> Brent I used to manually shift the automatic transmission in a 2002 Nissan
> Sentra that I used to drive.
>
> On surface streets--I'd press the button on the shifter to enable overdrive
> off and have the shifter at 1, then I would shift up to the next gear (2)
> just before the RPMs would allow the shift, then shift up again for the next
> gear (D, with overdrive off) just before the RPMs would allow a shift, and
> then the final shift to overdrive was a pushbutton to enable overdrive.
> While slowing down on surface streets, I'd also downshift the automatic
> transmission from D to 2 to 1 to also use mild engine braking so while I was
> still braking, it was less wear and tear on the brakes.
>
> Freeway driving usually worked best just leaving the shifter in D with
> overdrive enabled, and letting the computer do the shifting.
>
> It was the head gasket that finally blew and damaged the engine at over
> 190,000 miles, not the transmission.

All of this has nothing to do with what I posted. The vast majority of
drivers just stick AT's in D and thus the annoying conditions of US
traffic jams compared to those in places where people largely have MTs.

jim beam > wrote in :

> On 04/14/2012 12:15 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> On 04/13/2012 06:14 PM, tom thumb wrote:
>>> <brevity>
>>>>>
>>>> Where's the Regulators' Override Switch? We need to tell Congress
>>>> to yank it real hard!
>>>
>>> no, we need to yank the override switch on congress. throw them out
>>> and bring in a new lot with a strict 4 year term limit.
>>>
>>>
>> AMEN!
>> and no jumping to a different gov't job.
>> no hopping between House and Senate,and then to some other gov't job.
>> No "career" in gov't for legislators.
>>
>
> and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with
> lobbying jobs and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door
> between "regulators" and the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers
> literally trillions of dollars.
>
>

with term limits,lobbying becomes much less effective.
after a cycle or two,the lobbyist no longer knows any one,and doesn't have
enough time to develop a "relationship". Plus,the money they could dole out
for re-election is no longer useful;in fact they would be unable to dole
out such monies.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

jim beam > wrote in :

> On 04/14/2012 12:17 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim > wrote in :
>>
>>> On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> > wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>> ... On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>>>>> vehicles
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>>>>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>>>>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>>>>> "drivers" just "operators."
>>>>>
>>>>> nate
>>>>> ##################################
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
>>>> Except that most passenger cars are not intended for "performance
>>>> driving".
>>>
>>> holding a car on a hill is not "performance driving". i don't know
>>> where you're from, but hereabouts, driver's ed teaches you to left
>>> foot brake and apply right foot gas when pulling away on a hill.
>>> [indeed, that's why the brake pedal is wide enough for two feet on
>>> automatics - in case you hadn't noticed.] kinda hard to do with the
>>> stooooopidity envisaged above.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Plus, the override would only occur at full throttle acceleration and
>>>> braking, so what specific situation demands full throttle accleration
>>>> and braking on main thoroughfare roads and highways, not test tracks?
>>>
>>> there's no way you can assume a throttle is going to stick at just one
>>> position. absolutely no way.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> if you need to hillhold,that is what the handbrake is for.
>
> that's what i do - because my car is equipped for it, but on cars with
> ratcheting foot operated parking brakes, you can't do that.

I've never seen an automatic that needed hillholding;
usually,they have a lot of creep unless you keep your foot on the brake.
a couple of miles per hour of "creep",I believe.
>
>
>> Left-foot braking is a BAD habit. you learn to use the same foot all the
>> time for the same function,so that in an emergency,you automatically
>> react the right way,and you cna't left-foot brake with a stick shift.
>
> i personally agree, but left foot braking for hill holding is in
> driver's ed. you'll therefore never convince the proles otherwise. and
> you'll need to convince our "regulators" who continue to allow
> manufacture of vehicles specifically to be left foot braked with
> double-width [both feet] brake pedals on every automatic and who don't
> insist that vehicles have hand operated parking brakes.
>
>



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On 4/14/2012 3:59 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 04/14/2012 11:17 AM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>> <snip troll>
>>
>> you're about three years behind the times, troll. the whole thing has
>> been exhaustively investigated, including the "black box", including
>> by the nhtsa. no vehicle problem other than floor mat. and frankly, if
>> some retard driver doesn't notice the freakin' mat's in the way and
>> doesn't reach down and move it, that's /still/ not a vehicle problem.
>>
> Cite? As in provide a link proving it.

For the search-engine impaired:

"Toyota Recall Recap: Floormats, Sticky Pedals, AND User Error
February 28, 2011 6:47 PM

Let’s recap.

After 18 months, recalls totaling 9 million Toyota, Lexus, and Pontiac
models, and investigations by Toyota, Congress, NASA, and the U.S.
Department of Transportation’s National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration (NHTSA) unit … what have we learned?

(1) A few accelerator pedals did stick open, for one of two very
different reasons.

First, some dealers or owners fitted unapproved floor mats that were too
thick, which could prevent the accelerator from returning to its usual
position.

In the case of the horrifying and highly publicized crash of a Lexus
that sped along a California freeway before overturning, burning, and
killing all four occupants, a trapped accelerator pedal is thought to
have been compounded by the driver not knowing how to turn off the
engine in a car with a push-button start.

Loose all-weather floor mat jams accelerator pedal. Photo: NHTSA

(The answer: Hold down the “Start” button for a full 3 seconds. Hardly
obvious without reading the owner’s manual, which few people do for
their own car, let alone the dealership loaner that crashed.)

Solution: Toyota amputated the bottoms of low-hanging pedals in some
models, leaving clearance for even the thickest floor mats to be used
without interfering with reshaped, shorter pedals.

Second, some other accelerator pedal mechanisms stuck under specific
temperature and humidity conditions, remaining at about 15 percent of
full throttle because moisture prevented a smooth return action.

2004 Toyota Prius accelerator pedal after being shortened as part of
sudden-acceleration recall

It got complicated: Only pedal assemblies made by CTS, one of two parts
suppliers, suffered from the issue. So Toyota [NYSE:TM] first had to
sort out which cars got parts from which supplier.

Solution: Starting in February 2010, Toyota installed a steel
reinforcement bar on models using pedals supplied by CTS (a different
set of cars from those on the amputation list). The bar kept the
mechanism away from the position where it could stick.

(For more information, see our summary, Toyota And Lexus Recall:
Everything You Need To Know, which gives details on the two separate
recalls to address accelerator issues.)

(2) Investigators found no “electronic gremlins” in Toyota’s vehicle or
engine control software.

This was the big fear, raised repeatedly by plaintiff lawyers and on the
floor of Congress. Math is hard, software is confusing, and computerized
cars are scary. The lack of technical knowledge among elected officials
didn’t help either.

Toyota retrofit fix for sticky-throttle recall

But investigators could not replicate a single so-called “sudden
acceleration” event once floor-mat and sticky-pedal causes were eliminated.

They pored through hundreds of thousands of lines of code seeking
anomalies, unaddressed use cases, or any other problem that might make a
car careen suddenly forward.

They even subjected Toyotas to high levels of electromagnetic
interference, to see if systems weren’t properly shielded. Nothing changed.

The full NHTSA report wasn’t released by the DoT until this Tuesday, but
as early as last August, the agency sent signals it had concluded that
no electronic faults existed.

(3) Drivers who swear their car accelerated out of control are often wrong.

You put your foot on the brake, but instead of slowing, your car
accelerates. The harder you brake, the faster it speeds up. Must be
“sudden acceleration,” right?

Well, no.

2009 Toyota Prius

It is, says psychology professor Richard Schmidt at the University of
California, Los Angeles, “noisy neuromuscular processes” that
occasionally prevent a limb from doing what the brain tells it to.
Translation: Drivers sometimes press the gas pedal when they mean to brake.

The driver thinks his or her foot is on the brake. But it’s not; it
deviated slightly from the intended path, and landed on the loud pedal
instead.

As soon as the car accelerates, the panicky driver presses even harder
on the “brake,” exacerbating the crisis.

Age may play a factor too, with data showing that the bulk of Toyota
“sudden acceleration” deaths involving drivers aged 60 to 80.

In two highly publicized cases of so-called sudden acceleration,
including one very suspicious one, investigators found either “strong
indications that the driver’s account of the event is inconsistent with
the findings of the analysis” (for which, read, “he lied”) or “no
application of the brakes, [with] the throttle … fully open.”

But there are no mysterious electronic gremlins. And drivers do make
mistakes.

Honest."--http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/02/28/toyota-recall-recap-floormats-sticky-pedals-and-user-error/

"Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
4...
> jim beam > wrote in :
>
>> On 04/14/2012 12:17 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> jim > wrote in :
>>>
>>>> On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>>>>> > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> > wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. >
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>>>>>> vehicles
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>>>>>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>>>>>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>>>>>> "drivers" just "operators."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> nate
>>>>>> ##################################
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
>>>>> Except that most passenger cars are not intended for "performance
>>>>> driving".
>>>>
>>>> holding a car on a hill is not "performance driving". i don't know
>>>> where you're from, but hereabouts, driver's ed teaches you to left
>>>> foot brake and apply right foot gas when pulling away on a hill.
>>>> [indeed, that's why the brake pedal is wide enough for two feet on
>>>> automatics - in case you hadn't noticed.] kinda hard to do with the
>>>> stooooopidity envisaged above.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Plus, the override would only occur at full throttle acceleration and
>>>>> braking, so what specific situation demands full throttle accleration
>>>>> and braking on main thoroughfare roads and highways, not test tracks?
>>>>
>>>> there's no way you can assume a throttle is going to stick at just one
>>>> position. absolutely no way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> if you need to hillhold,that is what the handbrake is for.
>>
>> that's what i do - because my car is equipped for it, but on cars with
>> ratcheting foot operated parking brakes, you can't do that.
>
> I've never seen an automatic that needed hillholding;
> usually,they have a lot of creep unless you keep your foot on the brake.
> a couple of miles per hour of "creep",I believe.

However, there are some 4 cylinder automatic transmissions with rollback.
Hill holding would be just before the moment of moving forward: 1) left foot
on brake pedal, 2) right foot on gas pedal, 3) apply a small amount of gas
pedal then slowly release the brake. Properly done means no rollback and no
suddenly moving forward too fast.

[snip...]

"Sancho Panza" > wrote in message
...
> On 4/14/2012 3:59 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 04/14/2012 11:17 AM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>>> <snip troll>
>>>
>>> you're about three years behind the times, troll. the whole thing has
>>> been exhaustively investigated, including the "black box", including
>>> by the nhtsa. no vehicle problem other than floor mat. and frankly, if
>>> some retard driver doesn't notice the freakin' mat's in the way and
>>> doesn't reach down and move it, that's /still/ not a vehicle problem.
>>>
>> Cite? As in provide a link proving it.
>
> For the search-engine impaired:
>
The claim was yours that you made, so you were expected to make the cite,
not my responsibility to search for it.

But since you provided a cite:

> "Toyota Recall Recap: Floormats, Sticky Pedals, AND User Error
> February 28, 2011 6:47 PM
>
> Let’s recap.
>

[snip... full article text quoted removed from the reply]

> Honest."--http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/02/28/toyota-recall-recap-floormats-sticky-pedals-and-user-error/

Not one mention of going to the open road, causing a pedal stick situtation
in the full throttle position, then trying to outbrake the still
accelerating vehicle. If they didn't do that, the investigation to this day
is still quite incomplete.

On Apr 14, 1:16*pm, Brent > wrote:
> On 2012-04-14, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Brent" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > [snip...]
>
> >> Even if numbers of vehicles on the road do not decline, without the
> >> automatic transmission being in the majority people will change their
> >> driving habits making such conditions less common. People avoid
> >> discomfort and will adjust their driving appropiately.
>
> > Brent I used to manually shift the automatic transmission in a 2002 Nissan
> > Sentra that I used to drive.
>
> > On surface streets--I'd press the button on the shifter to enable overdrive
> > off and have the shifter at 1, then I would shift up to the next gear (2)
> > just before the RPMs would allow the shift, then shift up again for the next
> > gear (D, with overdrive off) just before the RPMs would allow a shift, and
> > then the final shift to overdrive was a pushbutton to enable overdrive.
> > While slowing down on surface streets, I'd also downshift the automatic
> > transmission from D to 2 to 1 to also use mild engine braking so while I was
> > still braking, it was less wear and tear on the brakes.
>
> > Freeway driving usually worked best just leaving the shifter in D with
> > overdrive enabled, and letting the computer do the shifting.
>
> > It was the head gasket that finally blew and damaged the engine at over
> > 190,000 miles, not the transmission.
>
> All of this has nothing to do with what I posted. The vast majority of
> drivers just stick AT's in D and thus the annoying conditions of US
> traffic jams compared to those in places where people largely have MTs.

Which is different from the ones with manual tranny on the freeway?
Thay stick it in the top gear slot what ever it is and leave it there
unless congestion slows traffic way down.
Comes to free way driving there is almost zero difference inoperation
between the two types of trannys except in congestion.

There is nothing magical or mysterious about a manual tranny, Takes
no more attention to operate than a auto once one is used to driving
one. A bit more "stirring" at starts and stops or in traffic jams is
the
only difference and one doesn't even notice or give much thought to
doing it.

Harry K