phooey. :P

Well, I don't think it was a tank of bad gas. Got out to
run the ZJ a bit to diagnose the problem. Think it's
probably a bad coil or ignition. Hard to say since the ZJ
left me stranded on the road today. I would have tried a
few things but the closest auto parts store was about five
miles. So the ZJ got towed to a local dealership and I'll
have to "assume the position" some time Monday.

On the bright side, I was planning on taking the Jeep on a
long trip and that means it probably would have crapped out
miles from nowhere.

--
DougW

DougW wrote:
> Well, I don't think it was a tank of bad gas. Got out to
> run the ZJ a bit to diagnose the problem. Think it's
> probably a bad coil or ignition. Hard to say since the ZJ
> left me stranded on the road today. I would have tried a
> few things but the closest auto parts store was about five
> miles. So the ZJ got towed to a local dealership and I'll
> have to "assume the position" some time Monday.

Hmm. I knew dropping it off at the dealer would be expensive.
That's the "no duh" part of it.

They called and said it was the fuel pump. I asked if they
changed the fuel filter (which is often the reason) but the
"service manager" didn't know. Most often the pump is not bad
and it's just the filter (and mine is near replacment time
anyway)

Get this.

Fuel pump and filter with labor ~ $960 !

For reference.
Fuel filter = $25
Fuel pump = $370 (288.60 dealer to shop)
Labor rate = $150 - $200

Actual REAL shop cost = $ 545-595

Odd isn't it. It's cheaper for me to pay $80 and have the
Jeep towed to a local shop and have it repaired there.
I'd do it myself but the gas tank is full! Simply don't have
the tools to safely lower that much sloshing weight or to
store the gas.

I will say this. The engine did lean out (02 gauge) so that
is fuel. And given the age it is possible the pump has gone
because a clogged filter will usually allow the engine to idle
but not accelerate. Now if it's fully plugged up then the
engine won't even start. But generally the first thing is to
drop the filter and pour it out backwards into a glass to see
what comes out.

What I'm wondering is if all the bumping along on rutted ice
covered roads shook loose a bunch of crud buildup in the tank
and that's my problem.

Anyhoo.....

--
DougW

DougW wrote:

> DougW wrote:
>> Well, I don't think it was a tank of bad gas. Got out to
>> run the ZJ a bit to diagnose the problem. Think it's
>> probably a bad coil or ignition. Hard to say since the ZJ
>> left me stranded on the road today. I would have tried a
>> few things but the closest auto parts store was about five
>> miles. So the ZJ got towed to a local dealership and I'll
>> have to "assume the position" some time Monday.
>
> Hmm. I knew dropping it off at the dealer would be expensive.
> That's the "no duh" part of it.
>
> They called and said it was the fuel pump. I asked if they
> changed the fuel filter (which is often the reason) but the
> "service manager" didn't know. Most often the pump is not bad
> and it's just the filter (and mine is near replacment time
> anyway)
>
> Get this.
>
> Fuel pump and filter with labor ~ $960 !
>
> For reference.
> Fuel filter = $25
> Fuel pump = $370 (288.60 dealer to shop)
> Labor rate = $150 - $200
>
> Actual REAL shop cost = $ 545-595
>
> Odd isn't it. It's cheaper for me to pay $80 and have the
> Jeep towed to a local shop and have it repaired there.
> I'd do it myself but the gas tank is full! Simply don't have
> the tools to safely lower that much sloshing weight or to
> store the gas.
>
> I will say this. The engine did lean out (02 gauge) so that
> is fuel. And given the age it is possible the pump has gone
> because a clogged filter will usually allow the engine to idle
> but not accelerate. Now if it's fully plugged up then the
> engine won't even start. But generally the first thing is to
> drop the filter and pour it out backwards into a glass to see
> what comes out.
>
> What I'm wondering is if all the bumping along on rutted ice
> covered roads shook loose a bunch of crud buildup in the tank
> and that's my problem.
>
> Anyhoo.....

My luck with fuel pumps recently is that they work or they don't - no middle
ground or limp home. Fortunately, the pump in the MJ can be changed without
dropping the tank, even if it's full. Had to do just that one cold, rainy
Sunday afternoon in the church parking lot after my son's wedding in Dallas
- miserable experience!

I knew that I knocked the sock off the pump as I installed but I was too
cold and wet to care at the moment so I waited until I got back to Colorado
to remedy that. With the tank close to empty, I went to fish the sock out
and managed to pull six old socks out so I wasn't the first one. I also
took the opportunity to scan the inside of the tank and was surprised at the
amount of crap gathered in the bottom of that tank. I dropped it and
flushed it really well. That pump froze solid a month later (love those
"lifetime warranties") and I figure that crap was the cause after 800 miles
home w/o the sock. It's amazing how much gunge accumulates in the tank but
mine is an '88 so it had lots of time. The surprising thing was how little
problem I had even with a bunch of pretty rough use in the mountains here
but your guess about stirring things up sounds pretty reasonable.

If you go to clean the tank, I had really good luck with Seafoam and letting
it soak for a day or so - dissolved nearly everything and a quick rinse with
gas was all it took to get the tank clean after draining the Seafoam mixture
out.


--
Will Honea

Will Honea wrote:

> My luck with fuel pumps recently is that they work or they don't - no
> middle ground or limp home. Fortunately, the pump in the MJ can be
> changed without dropping the tank, even if it's full. Had to do just
> that one cold, rainy Sunday afternoon in the church parking lot after
> my son's wedding in Dallas - miserable experience!

Wonderfull. :P Ever notice they never leave you stranded on a nice
warm sandy beach somewhere with the beautiful girl, just a few yards
from the all you can drink margarita bar?

Mine left me on a snow covered side street about ten miles from home.
Sadly when it first started sputtering was the previous Thursday and
I could have taken it in to a local wrencher then. But nooooooo I had
to wait it out over the weekend.

> I knew that I knocked the sock off the pump as I installed but I was
> too cold and wet to care at the moment so I waited until I got back
> to Colorado to remedy that. With the tank close to empty, I went to
> fish the sock out and managed to pull six old socks out so I wasn't
> the first one. I also took the opportunity to scan the inside of the
> tank and was surprised at the amount of crap gathered in the bottom
> of that tank. I dropped it and flushed it really well. That pump
> froze solid a month later (love those "lifetime warranties") and I
> figure that crap was the cause after 800 miles home w/o the sock.

Probably so. I worry a bit more about the injectors, those little
buggers are expensive.

> It's amazing how much gunge accumulates in the tank but mine is an
> '88 so it had lots of time....

93 here, not that much more time.

Heck, just one tank of crapoline (and I think I know where this one
came from) is enough to clog the big filter. Thanfully the ZJ has an
external unit, but alas you either have to cut a hole in the rear deck
or drop the tank for the fuel pump.

> ... The surprising thing was how little
> problem I had even with a bunch of pretty rough use in the mountains
> here but your guess about stirring things up sounds pretty
> reasonable.

Handn't bounce the ZJ around recently, but I'm certainly not easy on it
either. Usually replace fuel filters every couple of years or about
20,000 miles. When I do, I drain them backwards into a flask and let
the stuff settle. Last one didn't have anything in it but I swapped
it anyway.

A few years piror I picked up some real ****.
http://www.revbeergoggles.com/badgas/
Probably should have dropped the tank at that point but after draining
and cleaning with seafoam/fuel stuff/ the next couple of filter changes
didn't show any debris.

> If you go to clean the tank, I had really good luck with Seafoam and
> letting it soak for a day or so - dissolved nearly everything and a
> quick rinse with gas was all it took to get the tank clean after
> draining the Seafoam mixture out.

Just got off the phone with the dealer. For the price they are going to
clean the whole system and the tank. Given how crappy it is outside I'll
just suck it up and hope the pump lasts till the ZJ falls apart.

Can't bitch much, (well, yes I can, but...) it's the original 1993 pump
and it gets a bit more use due to the supercharger. Got a Kenne Bell
boost-a-pump module on it that ups the overall pressure to 75psi rather
than 32psi.

--
DougW

"DougW" > wrote in message
...
> Will Honea wrote:
>
>> My luck with fuel pumps recently is that they work or they don't - no
>> middle ground or limp home. Fortunately, the pump in the MJ can be
>> changed without dropping the tank, even if it's full. Had to do just
>> that one cold, rainy Sunday afternoon in the church parking lot after
>> my son's wedding in Dallas - miserable experience!
>
> Wonderfull. :P Ever notice they never leave you stranded on a nice
> warm sandy beach somewhere with the beautiful girl, just a few yards
> from the all you can drink margarita bar?
>
>

As a repair tech, I can also tell you that invariably when the fuel pump
starts to act up, the owner will dump 20 gal of gas into the tank to try and
fix it. Then I gotta figure out what to do with a couple of hundred pounds
of gas when I drop the tank. Our small dealership doesn't have the funds to
buy a gas bowser like some of the bigger places I've worked.



--
Old Crow
'82 FLTC(P) 92"
'87 FLTC
'61 F-100 302/C-6
BS#133, SENS, TOMKAT, SLOB#13, MAMBM

Old Crow wrote:

> As a repair tech, I can also tell you that invariably when the fuel
> pump starts to act up, the owner will dump 20 gal of gas into the
> tank to try and fix it. Then I gotta figure out what to do with a
> couple of hundred pounds of gas when I drop the tank. Our small
> dealership doesn't have the funds to buy a gas bowser like some of
> the bigger places I've worked.

In my case the tank was nearly full. Just filled it for a trip actually.

If it was about half full or less (and died in the garage) I would
have bought a a couple 5 gal plastic fuel cans. Fairly easy to siphon
the fuel off. The problem is all the red-tape and storing. Guess an
outside fuel cabinet would work. Thing is if the gas is crap then it
has to either be settled then filtered real well, or tossed. So I'd
be stuck with a couple of years worth of lawnmower feed.

--
DougW

On 2/5/2011 12:53 PM, DougW wrote:
> Well, I don't think it was a tank of bad gas. Got out to
> run the ZJ a bit to diagnose the problem. Think it's
> probably a bad coil or ignition. Hard to say since the ZJ
> left me stranded on the road today. I would have tried a
> few things but the closest auto parts store was about five
> miles. So the ZJ got towed to a local dealership and I'll
> have to "assume the position" some time Monday.
>
> On the bright side, I was planning on taking the Jeep on a
> long trip and that means it probably would have crapped out
> miles from nowhere.
>

Same exact damn thing happened to me recently. It didnt turn me into a
pedestrian, but it sure started spluttering, running rough, etc.
Began within 5 minutes after filling my tank at a local Stop & Pee.
Adding alcohol can sometimes make water/ice in gas worse with Bushgas.
Added fuel stabilizer, filled tank with higher priced Bushgas, did that
again. Drove it for a while, where it somewhat came and went.
Started in subzero temperatures, ran well when cold.
After warmup began the stuttering under load.
Gave up, took in to check for plugged cat. Nope.
Ran a general check. Spark plugs getting warn, and a burnt ignition
wire. Swapped wire, back to normal 6 banger purr.
^@$^@$%###!!!

"DougW" > wrote in message
...
> DougW wrote:
>> Well, I don't think it was a tank of bad gas. Got out to
>> run the ZJ a bit to diagnose the problem. Think it's
>> probably a bad coil or ignition. Hard to say since the ZJ
>> left me stranded on the road today. I would have tried a
>> few things but the closest auto parts store was about five
>> miles. So the ZJ got towed to a local dealership and I'll
>> have to "assume the position" some time Monday.
>
> Hmm. I knew dropping it off at the dealer would be expensive.
> That's the "no duh" part of it.
>
> They called and said it was the fuel pump. I asked if they
> changed the fuel filter (which is often the reason) but the
> "service manager" didn't know. Most often the pump is not bad
> and it's just the filter (and mine is near replacment time
> anyway)
>
> Get this.
>
> Fuel pump and filter with labor ~ $960 !
>
> For reference.
> Fuel filter = $25
> Fuel pump = $370 (288.60 dealer to shop)
> Labor rate = $150 - $200
>
> Actual REAL shop cost = $ 545-595
>
> Odd isn't it. It's cheaper for me to pay $80 and have the
> Jeep towed to a local shop and have it repaired there.
> I'd do it myself but the gas tank is full! Simply don't have
> the tools to safely lower that much sloshing weight or to
> store the gas.
>
> I will say this. The engine did lean out (02 gauge) so that
> is fuel. And given the age it is possible the pump has gone
> because a clogged filter will usually allow the engine to idle
> but not accelerate. Now if it's fully plugged up then the
> engine won't even start. But generally the first thing is to
> drop the filter and pour it out backwards into a glass to see
> what comes out.
>
> What I'm wondering is if all the bumping along on rutted ice
> covered roads shook loose a bunch of crud buildup in the tank
> and that's my problem.
>
> Anyhoo.....
>
> --
> DougW
>

Here's a crazy one for ya:

88 XJ (Renix ... so, no check light)

Quit running, got mad so I rocked the tar out of it ... started right up.
Three days later, quit again, 35 miles from home, my brother towed me home,
replaced filter and it started right up ( it got rocked again while jacking
it up). Two weeks later, it quit again and had to be towed across town to
get home.

Dropped tank after siphoning out fuel and found the pump power wire shorted
out. Found pump loose in mount but replaced pump and still no start, pulled
it apart and the tube thru the mount was broken loose and had pulled the
hose off the pump. Silver soldered it back in place and haven't had a
problem since.

Diagnosis:

Some dunce of a tech had twisted the fuel line and broke it loose while
replacing the OEM pump, installed the generic one badly (came loose from
mount) and the the whole shebang flopping around shorted the power lead,
which fortunately was covered in fuel when it happened (no O2 to cause a
fire).

And people wonder why I prefer to do my own work . . . . . . . .


--
C.L. "Budd" Cochran
Pray for the Obama administration: Psalm 109:8
http://truefree1776.blogdrive.com/

DougW wrote:

> If it was about half full or less (and died in the garage) I would
> have bought a a couple 5 gal plastic fuel cans. Fairly easy to siphon
> the fuel off. The problem is all the red-tape and storing. Guess an
> outside fuel cabinet would work. Thing is if the gas is crap then it
> has to either be settled then filtered real well, or tossed. So I'd
> be stuck with a couple of years worth of lawnmower feed.

I must be getting old - seems most people never heard of the best one-time
gas filter around: a clean chamois. Put it inside a funnel, pour the gas
through it (runs faster than you would expect). About as fine a filter as
you can find but don't expect it to clean windows after that ;-) Used to
keep one in a mason jar in the boat as it also does a pretty good job of
getting eater out of the gas.

--
Will Honea

Hey Doug,
I have a friend who is having the same problem. He took his out over the
weekend to play in the snow a little and it crapped out on him just like
yours did. About the same model too.


"DougW" > wrote in message
...
Well, I don't think it was a tank of bad gas. Got out to
run the ZJ a bit to diagnose the problem. Think it's
probably a bad coil or ignition. Hard to say since the ZJ
left me stranded on the road today. I would have tried a
few things but the closest auto parts store was about five
miles. So the ZJ got towed to a local dealership and I'll
have to "assume the position" some time Monday.

On the bright side, I was planning on taking the Jeep on a
long trip and that means it probably would have crapped out
miles from nowhere.

--
DougW