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Clutch bolts and locktite



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 23rd 18, 06:29 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Paul in Houston TX[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 201
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2018 18:17:06 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Are you supporting the engine?

>
> OH oh.... supporting the engine?
> I could. I have plenty of floor jacks.
>
> It's RWD though.
> The vehicle is on four jack stands (two on the rear axle and two on front
> frame points just inside the wheels).
>
> I appreciate your question, and my answer is definitely "no", I am not
> supporting the engine.
>
> It didn't occur to me to support the engine so I have to ask why would that
> help?
>
> (I'm not at all against the idea - I just don't understand how it can
> help?)
>
> How would I support the engine so that it would help?


Oh my.

You _must_ support the engine. Either via a block of wood under the oil
pan, a trans lift under the pan, or a bar with chain across the shock towers
or hood opening. If you dont, the engine will tilt. Bad things can happen
like something goes through the radiator or the exhaust manifold breaks,
wires get ripped off, etc.
The cross member - remove it. It will make life a lot easier.
You did not say what specific engine, vehicle, trans, etc, but without
removing it it is doubtful that that there will be enough room to back off
the trans and then tilt forward to drop it with out breaking off the tail shaft.
So why are you removing the trans? To R&R the clutch?
If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it.
You will need a clutch plate centering tool.
Thread lock- I tend to use blue thread lock on small bolts and nuts
that get torqued to inch pounds but not on large bolts that get
torqued to 100+ foot pounds. A suggestion: replace any lock washers.

Ads
  #12  
Old July 23rd 18, 07:09 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
rbowman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 159
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 07/22/2018 08:58 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2018 18:17:06 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Are you supporting the engine?

>
> OH oh.... supporting the engine?
> I could. I have plenty of floor jacks.
>
> It's RWD though.
> The vehicle is on four jack stands (two on the rear axle and two on front
> frame points just inside the wheels).
>
> I appreciate your question, and my answer is definitely "no", I am not
> supporting the engine.
>
> It didn't occur to me to support the engine so I have to ask why would that
> help?
>
> (I'm not at all against the idea - I just don't understand how it can
> help?)
>
> How would I support the engine so that it would help?
>


You took out the cross member under the transmission, right? Do the
engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission mounts
play a part? In other words, is the rear of the engine trying to rotate
downward and binding the transmission?

I don't know your vehicle, but usually a jack under the crankcase does
the trick. You're not trying to jack the engine up, just replace the
support provided by the transmission you're trying to remove.
  #13  
Old July 23rd 18, 07:13 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
rbowman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 159
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 07/22/2018 11:29 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it.


Good advice. I've replaced two throwout bearings on my F150. I did the
clutch and pressure plate too the second time around even though both
were serviceable. The latest throwout bearing is composite, not cast
iron, and hopefully will last. For the record, it wasn't the bearing
itself but the body binding on the transmission.

  #14  
Old July 23rd 18, 07:40 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Tekkie®
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

Wade Garrett posted for all of us...


>
> On 7/22/18 4:10 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> > Which is best for dropping the transmission?
> >
> > Do you remove the crossmember, the bracket, or just the transmission mount?
> > * Crossmember http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6290082bracket03.jpg
> > * Bracket http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4222146bracket02.jpg
> > * Mount http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6137530bracket01.jpg
> >
> > Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?)
> > http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg
> >

> If you have to ask those questions, the job is above your pay grade...


I believe this guy is the valve stem thread, harbor freight bead breaker,
tire spec, brake lining spec Ultrec nym shifter. If he would just post under
one name then I and more people would help him. Since I posted this the
insults and diversions will now start.

--
Tekkie
  #15  
Old July 23rd 18, 09:28 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Terry Coombs[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 7/22/2018 6:10 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/22/2018 03:20 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
>>
>> * But damn sure on the nut that holds the compensator sprocket to the
>> crankshaft on your Harley ...

>
> Luckily I haven't had to go there yet. I didn't replace the clutch
> throwout bearing a few years ago but that's no big deal.
>
> Grant me the knowledge to put LocTite on the things shouldn't come
> apart, Never-Seez on the things that should, and the wisdom to know
> the difference.


Been there more than once on more than one bike . NOBODY puts a wrench
on my bike but me ... the 1990 Ultra recently got a total tranny rebuild
and new pistons/rings/valve tappets/top end gaskets plus a new primary
chain and comp sprocket set .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety .
Get off my lawn !

  #16  
Old July 23rd 18, 10:51 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 98
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 22 Jul 2018 22:29:00 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> Oh my.
>
> You _must_ support the engine. Either via a block of wood under the oil
> pan, a trans lift under the pan, or a bar with chain across the shock towers
> or hood opening. If you dont, the engine will tilt. Bad things can happen
> like something goes through the radiator or the exhaust manifold breaks,
> wires get ripped off, etc.
> The cross member - remove it. It will make life a lot easier.
> You did not say what specific engine, vehicle, trans, etc, but without
> removing it it is doubtful that that there will be enough room to back off
> the trans and then tilt forward to drop it with out breaking off the tail shaft.
> So why are you removing the trans? To R&R the clutch?
> If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it.
> You will need a clutch plate centering tool.
> Thread lock- I tend to use blue thread lock on small bolts and nuts
> that get torqued to inch pounds but not on large bolts that get
> torqued to 100+ foot pounds. A suggestion: replace any lock washers.


To answer your question, I am now supporting the engine but I don't think
it needed to be supported since nobody else does that that I could figure
out. With the jack on the engine and the transmission out, I can move the
engine about 1/2 inch or even less, so that might be helpful when lining it
up for the reassembly though.

The cross member and the sway bar were removed, and I'm glad it did that
because you need as much room as possible the first time you do it.

The Aisin clutch kit from Rockauto came with five pieces:
a. Clutch plate
b. Diaphragm
c. Pilot bearing
d. Throwout bearing
e. Alignment tool

I am replacing the clutch where it was worn to the rivets.

I'm kind of stuck now on whether to remove the flywheel and get a new one
or have it machined (and replace the oil seal behind it) or just keep it
where it is (the bolts are on really tightly and I can't tell if it needs
to be machined or not).
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4230325sticking05.jpg>
  #17  
Old July 23rd 18, 10:59 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 98
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 22 Jul 2018 23:09:49 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> You took out the cross member under the transmission, right?


Yup. And I'm glad I did as you need all the room you can get the first time
you do this job, especially since the transmission jack is kind of big.

> Do the
> engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission mounts
> play a part?


The engine is fully supported with the transmission out. Even so, I now
have a jack under it, just in case I want to move it upward to align things
on the replacement.

> In other words, is the rear of the engine trying to rotate
> downward and binding the transmission?


The problem was stupid. Really stupid. I am embarrassed. I removed the
exhaust bracket bolts (two of them) but I didnt' realize that the bracket,
even when not connected to the bell housing, was in the way of the bell
housing moving backward. I'm an idiot. It was all my fault.
I couldn't find a DIY that explained this as everyone has different exhaust
depending on federal versus cali and the engine most people have is
different.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9617515sticking01.jpg>

> I don't know your vehicle, but usually a jack under the crankcase does
> the trick. You're not trying to jack the engine up, just replace the
> support provided by the transmission you're trying to remove.


I have a jack under the engine now, but it's not needed for the engine.
It may be needed for adjusting angles for reassembly as the old diaphragm
(before I took it off the engine) seems off kilter when looking head (for
some reason).
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2755957sticking03.jpg>

While I can see the shift fork and throwout bearing in the bell housing
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2978407sticking02.jpg>

I haven't been able to see the pilot bearing or the rear oil seal.

Where is the pilot bearing? Is it under the throwout bearing?
Is the oil seal behind the flywheel?

I'm not sure if I can get that flywheel off as those bolts are tight and my
half-inch sockets are all only six point where you have to have 12 point:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7699843sticking07.jpg>

How important do you think the flywheel machining or replacement is?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4230325sticking05.jpg>

  #18  
Old July 23rd 18, 11:44 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Hank Rogers[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2018 23:09:49 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> You took out the cross member under the transmission, right?

>
> Yup. And I'm glad I did as you need all the room you can get the first time
> you do this job, especially since the transmission jack is kind of big.
>
>> Do the
>> engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission mounts
>> play a part?

>
> The engine is fully supported with the transmission out. Even so, I now
> have a jack under it, just in case I want to move it upward to align things
> on the replacement.
>
>> In other words, is the rear of the engine trying to rotate
>> downward and binding the transmission?

>
> The problem was stupid. Really stupid. I am embarrassed. I removed the
> exhaust bracket bolts (two of them) but I didnt' realize that the bracket,
> even when not connected to the bell housing, was in the way of the bell
> housing moving backward. I'm an idiot. It was all my fault.
> I couldn't find a DIY that explained this as everyone has different exhaust
> depending on federal versus cali and the engine most people have is
> different.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9617515sticking01.jpg>
>
>> I don't know your vehicle, but usually a jack under the crankcase does
>> the trick. You're not trying to jack the engine up, just replace the
>> support provided by the transmission you're trying to remove.

>
> I have a jack under the engine now, but it's not needed for the engine.
> It may be needed for adjusting angles for reassembly as the old diaphragm
> (before I took it off the engine) seems off kilter when looking head (for
> some reason).
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2755957sticking03.jpg>
>
> While I can see the shift fork and throwout bearing in the bell housing
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2978407sticking02.jpg>
>
> I haven't been able to see the pilot bearing or the rear oil seal.
>
> Where is the pilot bearing? Is it under the throwout bearing?
> Is the oil seal behind the flywheel?
>
> I'm not sure if I can get that flywheel off as those bolts are tight and my
> half-inch sockets are all only six point where you have to have 12 point:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7699843sticking07.jpg>
>
> How important do you think the flywheel machining or replacement is?
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4230325sticking05.jpg>
>


The pilot bearing is just a bushing in the end of the crank or flywheel.
The tip (about 1" or less) of the transmission's input shaft rests in
this bushing to support it from flexing. Visible after you remove
transmission and clutch plate and pressure plate. You'll need to use a
suitable puller attached to a slide hammer to get it out. If the one
already there looks ok, you can skip that and lightly grease it before
you install the new clutch. If it is badly worn out, the front bearings
in your tranny may be gone too.

Rear oil seal is a little more trouble. Need to remove the oil pan and
maybe even the rear crank main bearing. Again, if its not leaking, leave
it for the next overhaul.

Always replace the pressure plate and disc and the throwout bearing.
Often, if the friction plate hasn't worn down to where the rivets have
badly eaten up the flywheel, you don't need a new or regrind on the
flywheel. If the scoring or grooves are small, the new clutch plate will
wear in and work fine, although it will have slightly less lifetime
since the grooving takes up a tiny bit of it's thickness during break in.

A clutch is exactly the same type mechanism as a brake disk and rotor,
or brake shoes and drums. Use your experience there to guide you.

Judging when something must be replaced or reground is largely a matter
of experience, so you'll just have to go from there and learn from any
mistakes. There are no magic solutions.

Good luck.






  #19  
Old July 24th 18, 12:01 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Wade Garrett
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 26
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 7/23/18 2:40 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
> Wade Garrett posted for all of us...
>
>
>>
>> On 7/22/18 4:10 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
>>> Which is best for dropping the transmission?
>>>
>>> Do you remove the crossmember, the bracket, or just the transmission mount?
>>> * Crossmember http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6290082bracket03.jpg
>>> * Bracket http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4222146bracket02.jpg
>>> * Mount http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6137530bracket01.jpg
>>>
>>> Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?)
>>> http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg
>>>

>> If you have to ask those questions, the job is above your pay grade...

>
> I believe this guy is the valve stem thread, harbor freight bead breaker,
> tire spec, brake lining spec Ultrec nym shifter. If he would just post under
> one name then I and more people would help him. Since I posted this the
> insults and diversions will now start.
>

Yeah, he was offended by what I said and took a shot at me in another
newsgroup over it. I was really just trying to help the guy out.

Asking those rookie questions before starting the major repair he was
contemplating, I had visions of him mangling his hand, crushing his
fingers, or a heavy overhead assembly slipping as he tried to remove it
and dropping down onto him cracking his skull or crushing his chest.

When he sees this post- he'll probably go apoplectic!

--
If it is not right, do not do it; if it is not true, do not say it.
- Marcus Aurelius
  #20  
Old July 24th 18, 02:59 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
Terry Coombs[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 7/23/2018 5:44 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
> Arlen Holder wrote:
>> On 22 Jul 2018 23:09:49 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> You took out the cross member under the transmission, right?

>>
>> Yup. And I'm glad I did as you need all the room you can get the
>> first time
>> you do this job, especially since the transmission jack is kind of big.
>>
>>> Â* Do the
>>> engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission
>>> mounts
>>> play a part?

>>
>> The engine is fully supported with the transmission out. Even so, I now
>> have a jack under it, just in case I want to move it upward to align
>> things
>> on the replacement.
>>
>>> In other words, is the rear of the engine trying to rotate
>>> downward and binding the transmission?

>>
>> The problem was stupid. Really stupid. I am embarrassed. I removed the
>> exhaust bracket bolts (two of them) but I didnt' realize that the
>> bracket,
>> even when not connected to the bell housing, was in the way of the bell
>> housing moving backward. I'm an idiot. It was all my fault.
>> I couldn't find a DIY that explained this as everyone has different
>> exhaust
>> depending on federal versus cali and the engine most people have is
>> different.
>> Â* <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9617515sticking01.jpg>
>>
>>> I don't know your vehicle, but usually a jack under the crankcase does
>>> the trick. You're not trying to jack the engine up, just replace the
>>> support provided by the transmission you're trying to remove.

>>
>> I have a jack under the engine now, but it's not needed for the engine.
>> It may be needed for adjusting angles for reassembly as the old
>> diaphragm
>> (before I took it off the engine) seems off kilter when looking head
>> (for
>> some reason).
>> Â* <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2755957sticking03.jpg>
>>
>> While I can see the shift fork and throwout bearing in the bell housing
>> Â* <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2978407sticking02.jpg>
>>
>> I haven't been able to see the pilot bearing or the rear oil seal.
>>
>> Where is the pilot bearing? Is it under the throwout bearing?
>> Is the oil seal behind the flywheel?
>>
>> I'm not sure if I can get that flywheel off as those bolts are tight
>> and my
>> half-inch sockets are all only six point where you have to have 12
>> point:
>> Â* <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7699843sticking07.jpg>
>>
>> How important do you think the flywheel machining or replacement is?
>> Â* <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4230325sticking05.jpg>
>>

>
> The pilot bearing is just a bushing in the end of the crank or
> flywheel. The tip (about 1" or less) of the transmission's input shaft
> rests in this bushing to support it from flexing. Visible after you
> remove transmission and clutch plate and pressure plate. You'll need
> to use a suitable puller attached to a slide hammer to get it out. If
> the one already there looks ok, you can skip that and lightly grease
> it before you install the new clutch. If it is badly worn out, the
> front bearings in your tranny may be gone too.
>
> Rear oil seal is a little more trouble. Need to remove the oil pan and
> maybe even the rear crank main bearing. Again, if its not leaking,
> leave it for the next overhaul.
>
> Always replace the pressure plate and disc and the throwout bearing.
> Often, if the friction plate hasn't worn down to where the rivets have
> badly eaten up the flywheel, you don't need a new or regrind on the
> flywheel. If the scoring or grooves are small, the new clutch plate
> will wear in and work fine, although it will have slightly less
> lifetime since the grooving takes up a tiny bit of it's thickness
> during break in.
>
> A clutch is exactly the same type mechanism as a brake disk and rotor,
> or brake shoes and drums. Use your experience there to guide you.
>
> Judging when something must be replaced or reground is largely a
> matter of experience, so you'll just have to go from there and learn
> from any mistakes. There are no magic solutions.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Â* Pilot bushings are most easily removed by filling them with grease ,
then using a round bar that fits snugly to apply hydraulic pressure -
put one end of that round bar in the bushing and smack the other end
with a hammer . A big one works better ... the bushing will pop right out .

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety .
Get off my lawn !

 




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