I'm back and it's still sitting in my garage...

So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!

Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a high
idle for about 2 seconds.

Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
specification) at the Schrader valve.

Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big old
glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.

Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.

Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.

Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
from the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com, my
Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
again with the exact same results???

Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI module
and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.

Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?

Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged the
MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid down
the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
MAF was plugged in.

Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
MAF's.

Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes from
the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com, my Check
Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running. (I
checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
exact same results???

Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to see
if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!

The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking the
same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of the
injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
check all eight fuel injectors?

Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
respect to the fuel pressure regulator.

If it ran well friday and would not start Saturday, that would tend to rule
out the Fuel side of things.

Also the MAF, TFI are OK, and probably your injectors are all getting pulsed

It would indicate you have a loose wire or grounded wire.

If a few injectors were fouled it would run rough, and you have to pull the
top manifold to get to them, read the codes first.

try the electrical route some more, replace the rotor, cap, and coil. Check
the wiring around the coil, and check the battery voltage

Check all vacuume hoses for cracks leaks or fallen off,
there is a vacuume canaster passenger side front low in engine bay that has
a rubber elbow that expands and gets too loose on 93 and before causes
vaccume leak

If battery is below 11.2 you may have battery/altinator problem.


5.0 is very fixable, hang in there.




"Joe Colella" > wrote in message
news:tsf6j.2264$rB1.1734@trnddc03...
> So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
> situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
> not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
> suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>
> Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
> sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a
> high
> idle for about 2 seconds.
>
> Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
> specification) at the Schrader valve.
>
> Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big
> old
> glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
>
> Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
> peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
>
> Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
>
> Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
> from the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com,
> my
> Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
> any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
> running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
> again with the exact same results???
>
> Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI
> module
> and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
>
> Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
>
> Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged
> the
> MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid
> down
> the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
> MAF was plugged in.
>
> Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
> MAF's.
>
> Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes
> from
> the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com, my
> Check
> Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
> electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running.
> (I
> checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
> exact same results???
>
> Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to
> see
> if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
>
> The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
> being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking
> the
> same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of
> the
> injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
> check all eight fuel injectors?
>
> Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
> respect to the fuel pressure regulator.
>
>
>

Joe Colella wrote:
> So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
> situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
> not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
> suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>
> Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
> sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a high
> idle for about 2 seconds.
>
> Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
> specification) at the Schrader valve.
>
> Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big old
> glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
>
> Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
> peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
>
> Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
>
> Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
> from the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com, my
> Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
> any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
> running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
> again with the exact same results???
>
> Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI module
> and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
>
> Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
>
> Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged the
> MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid down
> the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
> MAF was plugged in.
>
> Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
> MAF's.
>
> Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes from
> the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com, my Check
> Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
> electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running. (I
> checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
> exact same results???
>
> Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to see
> if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
>
> The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
> being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking the
> same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of the
> injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
> check all eight fuel injectors?
>
> Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
> respect to the fuel pressure regulator.

There is one possibility and that is a bad computer. The computer in my
'89 LX died at around 1,000 miles so it is possible.

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 11:51:16 -0600, "biggus" > wrote:

>If it ran well friday and would not start Saturday, that would tend to rule
>out the Fuel side of things.
>
>Also the MAF, TFI are OK, and probably your injectors are all getting pulsed
>
>It would indicate you have a loose wire or grounded wire.
>
>If a few injectors were fouled it would run rough, and you have to pull the
>top manifold to get to them, read the codes first.
>
>try the electrical route some more, replace the rotor, cap, and coil. Check
>the wiring around the coil, and check the battery voltage
>
>Check all vacuume hoses for cracks leaks or fallen off,
>there is a vacuume canaster passenger side front low in engine bay that has
>a rubber elbow that expands and gets too loose on 93 and before causes
>vaccume leak
>
>If battery is below 11.2 you may have battery/altinator problem.
>
>
>5.0 is very fixable, hang in there.
>
>
99.9% chance it is a fuel problem, not ignition, from what he has
cheched. Also better than 90% chance it is an injection related
problem, not delivery.
My impression is it is an injector control problem. Possibly a bad ECU
ground, Possibly a power feed problem to the injectors.

FIRST thing to check is "do you have 12 volts to the injectors"
Pull an injector wiring plug and make sure you have 12 volts on at
least one side. If you don't, track it down and find out why. You may
have 12 volts on both sides. (likely will have) When you crank the
engine over, one side should "flash" as the control side is pulled to
ground to fire the injector. If it does not pull down check continuity
from the injector harness to the ECU, and ECU ground. If both are OK,
you've got a bad ECU or possibly a sensor connecton problem, but I
can't think of one that would totally kill injection and still provide
spark - but I'm not a Ford expert.

I'd be looking first at fuses and relays and fusible links if there is
no 12 volts to the injectors.
>
>"Joe Colella" > wrote in message
>news:tsf6j.2264$rB1.1734@trnddc03...
>> So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
>> situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
>> not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
>> suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>>
>> Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
>> sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a
>> high
>> idle for about 2 seconds.
>>
>> Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
>> specification) at the Schrader valve.
>>
>> Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big
>> old
>> glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
>>
>> Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
>> peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
>>
>> Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
>>
>> Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
>> from the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com,
>> my
>> Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
>> any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
>> running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
>> again with the exact same results???
>>
>> Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI
>> module
>> and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
>>
>> Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
>>
>> Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged
>> the
>> MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid
>> down
>> the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
>> MAF was plugged in.
>>
>> Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
>> MAF's.
>>
>> Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes
>> from
>> the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com, my
>> Check
>> Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
>> electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running.
>> (I
>> checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
>> exact same results???
>>
>> Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to
>> see
>> if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
>>
>> The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
>> being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking
>> the
>> same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of
>> the
>> injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
>> check all eight fuel injectors?
>>
>> Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
>> respect to the fuel pressure regulator.
>>
>>
>>
>


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:40:07 -0800, "ScottM" > wrote:

>Check for any corroded conections near the battery (acid fumes). If there
>are any plugs near the battery open them to have a look. I remember a Ford
>of some kind where they put the main ground for the ECM right next to the
>battery and it would corrode inside the plug. Couldn't see it without
>unplugging it.
>
>You really could check just one injector with the noid light. Not likley
>some would fire but not others.
>
>
>
>
>
>"Joe Colella" > wrote in message
>news:tsf6j.2264$rB1.1734@trnddc03...
>> So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
>> situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
>> not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
>> suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>>
>> Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
>> sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a
>> high
>> idle for about 2 seconds.
>>
>> Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
>> specification) at the Schrader valve.
>>
>> Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big
>> old
>> glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
>>
>> Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
>> peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
>>
>> Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
>>
>> Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault codes
>> from the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com,
>> my
>> Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear
>> any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
>> running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
>> again with the exact same results???
>>
>> Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI
>> module
>> and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
>>
>> Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
>>
>> Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged
>> the
>> MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid
>> down
>> the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when the
>> MAF was plugged in.
>>
>> Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
>> MAF's.
>>
>> Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes
>> from
>> the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com, my
>> Check
>> Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
>> electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still running.
>> (I
>> checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with the
>> exact same results???
>>
>> Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to
>> see
>> if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
>>
>> The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel injectors
>> being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking
>> the
>> same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of
>> the
>> injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
>> check all eight fuel injectors?
>>
>> Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
>> respect to the fuel pressure regulator.
>>
>>
>>
>
Everyone is pointing toward fuel problems, either delivery or
electric control through the computer or at the injectors. I remember
a big problem much like this that frustrated me to no end. Finally
asked an "expert shade tree mechanic" who said, "Check the timing,
it's the timing chain that's bad" Well, guess what..... Yup,
broke a tooth on the sprocket and it was off enough not to fire but
everything up top was working, just not at the right time.

Just for "my piece of mind" if not for yours, put a timing light on
it, that 30 seconds might save you a lot of trouble.

John

"Joe Colella" > wrote in message news:tsf6j.2264$rB1.1734@trnddc03...
> So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary... The
> situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it would
> not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
> suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>

Do a compression test to a few cylinders. I know of someone who had a 1991
GMC pickup that had the same problem. Turned out his timing chain snapped
& the camshaft wasn't rotating. If your distributor is driven by the cam then that
will not be the problem but it doesn't hurt to check compression.

On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 12:53:02 -0500, Michael Johnson >
wrote:

>There is one possibility and that is a bad computer. The computer in my
>'89 LX died at around 1,000 miles so it is possible.

Yes, but unless you check all the sensors and sub-systems and those
tests all point back to the computer, save that for dead last - yes
it's possible, but it's a vanishingly small chance, "Man Bites Dog"
rare. And the computers are rather expensive and not returnable.

The last thing you do before replacing the computer is to unplug the
computer wiring harnesses and wiggle when you plug them back in. A
little oxidation on one low-level sensor signal pin, or a low-level
output line that pulls up a critical relay...

Plugs, plug wires, cap and rotor are normal wear items that need to
be done occasionally anyway.

Hook up the Noid Lights and make sure it's pulsing, hook up a
pressure gauge and do a Pressure AND Flow test on the fuel pump and
pressure regulator - you crack a valve to fill a quart/liter jar in a
specified time while watching that the fuel pump is holding at or
above the specified pressure. Filling the quart jar doesn't work if
the pressure drops to zero in the process.

I think you said it starts for a few seconds on Ether (Starting
Fluid), that means it's getting ignition and likely a fuel issue.

--<< Bruce >>--

I've seen the module go bad
on some of them fords and still let the spark plug fire
but would not let the computer know when to fire
the injectors.

The only way is do a noid test on the injector harness
some part stores have free module test.

need to check the fuel pressure also.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 12:53:02 -0500, Michael Johnson >
> wrote:
>
>> There is one possibility and that is a bad computer. The computer in my
>> '89 LX died at around 1,000 miles so it is possible.
>
> Yes, but unless you check all the sensors and sub-systems and those
> tests all point back to the computer, save that for dead last - yes
> it's possible, but it's a vanishingly small chance, "Man Bites Dog"
> rare. And the computers are rather expensive and not returnable.

Just plug in a working computer and see if the car starts. Get one from
a junk yard.

> The last thing you do before replacing the computer is to unplug the
> computer wiring harnesses and wiggle when you plug them back in. A
> little oxidation on one low-level sensor signal pin, or a low-level
> output line that pulls up a critical relay...
>
> Plugs, plug wires, cap and rotor are normal wear items that need to
> be done occasionally anyway.
>
> Hook up the Noid Lights and make sure it's pulsing, hook up a
> pressure gauge and do a Pressure AND Flow test on the fuel pump and
> pressure regulator - you crack a valve to fill a quart/liter jar in a
> specified time while watching that the fuel pump is holding at or
> above the specified pressure. Filling the quart jar doesn't work if
> the pressure drops to zero in the process.
>
> I think you said it starts for a few seconds on Ether (Starting
> Fluid), that means it's getting ignition and likely a fuel issue.

As was mentioned before, it could be the ECU isn't firing the injectors.
IMO, the guy needs to get the car to a Ford dealer and let them
diagnose it. There is a reason they have all that fancy equipment
sitting around.

> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:40:07 -0800, "ScottM" > wrote:
>
>>Check for any corroded conections near the battery (acid fumes). If there
>>are any plugs near the battery open them to have a look. I remember a Ford
>>of some kind where they put the main ground for the ECM right next to the
>>battery and it would corrode inside the plug. Couldn't see it without
>>unplugging it.
>>
>>You really could check just one injector with the noid light. Not likley
>>some would fire but not others.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Joe Colella" > wrote in message
>>news:tsf6j.2264$rB1.1734@trnddc03...
>>> So, I have taken most of your advice and I am still stationary...
>>> The
>>> situation is my 93 GT ran well Friday night, but Saturday morning it
>>> would
>>> not start and this is what I have done... Any and all advice,
>>> suggestions and prayers will be greatly appreciated!!!
>>>
>>> Am I getting a spark... Yes, at the two plugs I checked and when I
>>> sprayed a lot of starter fluid into the open throttle body it ran at a
>>> high
>>> idle for about 2 seconds.
>>>
>>> Am I getting fuel... Not sure, but fuel pressure is 40 PSI (within
>>> specification) at the Schrader valve.
>>>
>>> Do I have bad gas... No. I siphoned about a gallon of gas into a big
>>> old
>>> glass jar and did not see any beads of water at the bottom of the jar.
>>>
>>> Pushing the peddle to the floor... Didn't help: I tried pushing the
>>> peddle to the floor while cranking the engine and it had no effect.
>>>
>>> Do I have a bad fuel filter... Changed it.
>>>
>>> Do I have a bad fuel pump... When I tried to extract some fault
>>> codes
>>> from the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com,
>>> my
>>> Check Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not
>>> hear
>>> any electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
>>> running. (I checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it
>>> again with the exact same results???
>>>
>>> Do I have a bad TFI module... Not the problem; I removed the TFI
>>> module
>>> and confirmed all of the resistances are within specification.
>>>
>>> Checking TFI module for ground and signal... How?
>>>
>>> Do I have a bad MAF; unplugging the MAF... Didn't help: I unplugged
>>> the
>>> MAF and tried starting the car normally and with a lot of starter fluid
>>> down
>>> the throttle body. In both cases the car behaved just like it did when
>>> the
>>> MAF was plugged in.
>>>
>>> Do I have a bad MAF; swapping the MAF... I have not tried swapping
>>> MAF's.
>>>
>>> Extracting fault codes... When I tried to extract some fault codes
>>> from
>>> the ECM by following the directions from www.fordfuelinjection.com, my
>>> Check
>>> Engine light lit dimly, I heard the fuel pump start, I did not hear any
>>> electronic clicks and after 1.5 minutes, the fuel pump was still
>>> running.
>>> (I
>>> checked my STI-to-negative terminal connection and tried it again with
>>> the
>>> exact same results???
>>>
>>> Do I have bad fuel injectors... I have been told to pull a couple to
>>> see
>>> if they have fouled nozzle tips. This seems easy enough!
>>>
>>> The "NOID" test... I assume the two questions "Are the fuel
>>> injectors
>>> being pulsed?" and "Are the fuel injectors being triggered?" are asking
>>> the
>>> same thing. I have been told to put a set of "NOID" lights in place of
>>> the
>>> injectors on the wiring harness and make sure they flash. Do I have to
>>> check all eight fuel injectors?
>>>
>>> Do I have a bad fuel pressure regulator... I have done nothing with
>>> respect to the fuel pressure regulator.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> Everyone is pointing toward fuel problems, either delivery or
> electric control through the computer or at the injectors. I remember
> a big problem much like this that frustrated me to no end. Finally
> asked an "expert shade tree mechanic" who said, "Check the timing,
> it's the timing chain that's bad" Well, guess what..... Yup,
> broke a tooth on the sprocket and it was off enough not to fire but
> everything up top was working, just not at the right time.
>
> Just for "my piece of mind" if not for yours, put a timing light on
> it, that 30 seconds might save you a lot of trouble.
>
> John


That could get bad if it broke more, valves and pistons and things.