Gas prices

Today it was announced that gasoline buyers in California should get used to
the idea that prices are headed toward the $4.00 + per gallon range soon ---
in fact in some places it's already here. I saw a shot of a price menu at a
gas station on the news this afternoon that showed premium at $4.149.

I'll be taking a 2,200 mile road trip in the next few weeks so this is lousy
news but I know prices in other states are apt to be lower than in my home
state of California for a couple of reasons. One is that California's clean
air regs require a different gas formulation than other states and it is
supposedly more expensive for the refiner/retailer to comply here than it is
in other states.

Factoid number two is that California places a higher than normal tax burden
on each gallon than other states, ostensibly to pay for other important
transportation-related improvements or maintenance to state highway systems
and to pay for alternative transportation measures to relieve traffic and
reduce emmisions but --- let's not kid ourselves --- most of the additional
revenue goes into California's General Fund and winds up getting spent on
other "important" non-automotive, non transportation related budget items by
the scum politicians in the state.

At any rate I expect a price drop in gas once I get outside California but
in the long run we'd all better get used to the idea that we'll be paying
European type prices soon.

An ironic fact: There are 14 refineries in California, several of which have
been offline due to unexpected repair or maintenance issues recently, so
supposedly there is a "shortage" of gasoline available at retailers which of
course fuels higher prices at the pump because demand exceeds supply. But
weirdly enough --- a TV news reporter dug up the fact that gasoline sales so
far this year are 3% higher than the same time last year. So much for the
"shortage". There's plenty of gas to go around in spite of the suspicious
shortage the refiners hold up as an excuse for their higher prices. Another
issue is that if there truly IS a shortage (which apparently there in fact
isn't) then the oil industry can be faulted for failing to foresee and plan
for maintenance of their refinery assets on a timely basis and avoid all the
"unexpected" or "emergency" repairs that supposedly impede an adequate flow
of product to the pump. So in effect the oil industry is ironically being
rewarded with higher prices and profits because they failed miserably to
maintain their assets and "misread" demand. Any other business making those
kind of mistakes would be punished by either a loss of profitability or
being chased out of business. But the oil industry? They are encouraged to
do everything wrong because it increases their protitability.

There is just something fundamentally wrong and fishy about all this. I
even suspect that when unfortunate "accidents" such as refinery fires occur,
they may actually be staged events so that somebody can manipulate the
friggin' "shortage" a little more.

Anyway it's getting harder and harder to love automobiles anymore.

Sorry for the rant.
--
Paddy's Pig

On Mon, 7 May 2007 18:11:46 -0700, "Padraig" >
wrote:

>Today it was announced that gasoline buyers in California should get used to
>the idea that prices are headed toward the $4.00 + per gallon range soon ---
>in fact in some places it's already here. I saw a shot of a price menu at a
>gas station on the news this afternoon that showed premium at $4.149.
>
>I'll be taking a 2,200 mile road trip in the next few weeks so this is lousy
>news but I know prices in other states are apt to be lower than in my home
>state of California for a couple of reasons. One is that California's clean
>air regs require a different gas formulation than other states and it is
>supposedly more expensive for the refiner/retailer to comply here than it is
>in other states.
>
>Factoid number two is that California places a higher than normal tax burden
>on each gallon than other states, ostensibly to pay for other important
>transportation-related improvements or maintenance to state highway systems
>and to pay for alternative transportation measures to relieve traffic and
>reduce emmisions but --- let's not kid ourselves --- most of the additional
>revenue goes into California's General Fund and winds up getting spent on
>other "important" non-automotive, non transportation related budget items by
>the scum politicians in the state.
>
>At any rate I expect a price drop in gas once I get outside California but
>in the long run we'd all better get used to the idea that we'll be paying
>European type prices soon.
>
>An ironic fact: There are 14 refineries in California, several of which have
>been offline due to unexpected repair or maintenance issues recently, so
>supposedly there is a "shortage" of gasoline available at retailers which of
>course fuels higher prices at the pump because demand exceeds supply. But
>weirdly enough --- a TV news reporter dug up the fact that gasoline sales so
>far this year are 3% higher than the same time last year. So much for the
>"shortage". There's plenty of gas to go around in spite of the suspicious
>shortage the refiners hold up as an excuse for their higher prices. Another
>issue is that if there truly IS a shortage (which apparently there in fact
>isn't) then the oil industry can be faulted for failing to foresee and plan
>for maintenance of their refinery assets on a timely basis and avoid all the
>"unexpected" or "emergency" repairs that supposedly impede an adequate flow
>of product to the pump. So in effect the oil industry is ironically being
>rewarded with higher prices and profits because they failed miserably to
>maintain their assets and "misread" demand. Any other business making those
>kind of mistakes would be punished by either a loss of profitability or
>being chased out of business. But the oil industry? They are encouraged to
>do everything wrong because it increases their protitability.
>
>There is just something fundamentally wrong and fishy about all this. I
>even suspect that when unfortunate "accidents" such as refinery fires occur,
>they may actually be staged events so that somebody can manipulate the
>friggin' "shortage" a little more.
>
>Anyway it's getting harder and harder to love automobiles anymore.
>
>Sorry for the rant.

These are exactly the same points I was making to a friend the other
day when I went on my own rant about the oil industry. Specifically,
that they are reaping record profits while they don't seem to plan for
maintenance, repairs, or other improvements to their infrastructure.

By the way, I live in northern Wisconsin and paid 3.349 for premium
yesterday, which is the lowest price in my town for that grade.
Wisconsin also has one of the highest gas taxes in the country. If
your travels take you in this direction, my experience has been that
prices in Minnesota, Iowa and Missouri are cheaper than they are here.
YMMV in Illinois.

Mark

"Padraig" > wrote in message
...
> Today it was announced that gasoline buyers in California should get used
to
> the idea that prices are headed toward the $4.00 + per gallon range
soon ---
> in fact in some places it's already here. I saw a shot of a price menu at
a
> gas station on the news this afternoon that showed premium at $4.149.
>
> I'll be taking a 2,200 mile road trip in the next few weeks so this is
lousy
> news but I know prices in other states are apt to be lower than in my home
> state of California for a couple of reasons. One is that California's
clean
> air regs require a different gas formulation than other states and it is
> supposedly more expensive for the refiner/retailer to comply here than it
is
> in other states.
>
> Factoid number two is that California places a higher than normal tax
burden
> on each gallon than other states, ostensibly to pay for other important
> transportation-related improvements or maintenance to state highway
systems
> and to pay for alternative transportation measures to relieve traffic and
> reduce emmisions but --- let's not kid ourselves --- most of the
additional
> revenue goes into California's General Fund and winds up getting spent on
> other "important" non-automotive, non transportation related budget items
by
> the scum politicians in the state.
>
> At any rate I expect a price drop in gas once I get outside California but
> in the long run we'd all better get used to the idea that we'll be paying
> European type prices soon.
>
> An ironic fact: There are 14 refineries in California, several of which
have
> been offline due to unexpected repair or maintenance issues recently, so
> supposedly there is a "shortage" of gasoline available at retailers which
of
> course fuels higher prices at the pump because demand exceeds supply. But
> weirdly enough --- a TV news reporter dug up the fact that gasoline sales
so
> far this year are 3% higher than the same time last year. So much for the
> "shortage". There's plenty of gas to go around in spite of the suspicious
> shortage the refiners hold up as an excuse for their higher prices.
Another
> issue is that if there truly IS a shortage (which apparently there in fact
> isn't) then the oil industry can be faulted for failing to foresee and
plan
> for maintenance of their refinery assets on a timely basis and avoid all
the
> "unexpected" or "emergency" repairs that supposedly impede an adequate
flow
> of product to the pump. So in effect the oil industry is ironically being
> rewarded with higher prices and profits because they failed miserably to
> maintain their assets and "misread" demand. Any other business making
those
> kind of mistakes would be punished by either a loss of profitability or
> being chased out of business. But the oil industry? They are encouraged
to
> do everything wrong because it increases their protitability.
>
> There is just something fundamentally wrong and fishy about all this. I
> even suspect that when unfortunate "accidents" such as refinery fires
occur,
> they may actually be staged events so that somebody can manipulate the
> friggin' "shortage" a little more.
>
> Anyway it's getting harder and harder to love automobiles anymore.
>
> Sorry for the rant.
> --
> Paddy's Pig

Exactly my sentiments on the subject.

Dan

>
>

Today, Blue Oval/Dan Edwards made these interesting comments ...

>
> "Padraig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Today it was announced that gasoline buyers in California
>> should get used to the idea that prices are headed toward the
>> $4.00 + per gallon range soon --- in fact in some places
>> it's already here. I saw a shot of a price menu at a gas
>> station on the news this afternoon that showed premium at
>> $4.149.
>>
>> I'll be taking a 2,200 mile road trip in the next few weeks
>> so this is lousy news but I know prices in other states are
>> apt to be lower than in my home state of California for a
>> couple of reasons. One is that California's clean air regs
>> require a different gas formulation than other states and it
>> is supposedly more expensive for the refiner/retailer to
>> comply here than it is in other states.
>>
>> Factoid number two is that California places a higher than
>> normal tax burden on each gallon than other states,
>> ostensibly to pay for other important transportation-related
>> improvements or maintenance to state highway systems and to
>> pay for alternative transportation measures to relieve
>> traffic and reduce emmisions but --- let's not kid ourselves
>> --- most of the additional revenue goes into California's
>> General Fund and winds up getting spent on other "important"
>> non-automotive, non transportation related budget items by
>> the scum politicians in the state.
>>
>> At any rate I expect a price drop in gas once I get outside
>> California but in the long run we'd all better get used to
>> the idea that we'll be paying European type prices soon.
>>
>> An ironic fact: There are 14 refineries in California,
>> several of which have been offline due to unexpected repair
>> or maintenance issues recently, so supposedly there is a
>> "shortage" of gasoline available at retailers which of course
>> fuels higher prices at the pump because demand exceeds
>> supply. But weirdly enough --- a TV news reporter dug up the
>> fact that gasoline sales so far this year are 3% higher than
>> the same time last year. So much for the "shortage".
>> There's plenty of gas to go around in spite of the suspicious
>> shortage the refiners hold up as an excuse for their higher
>> prices. Another issue is that if there truly IS a shortage
>> (which apparently there in fact isn't) then the oil industry
>> can be faulted for failing to foresee and plan for
>> maintenance of their refinery assets on a timely basis and
>> avoid all the "unexpected" or "emergency" repairs that
>> supposedly impede an adequate flow of product to the pump.
>> So in effect the oil industry is ironically being rewarded
>> with higher prices and profits because they failed miserably
>> to maintain their assets and "misread" demand. Any other
>> business making those kind of mistakes would be punished by
>> either a loss of profitability or being chased out of
>> business. But the oil industry? They are encouraged to do
>> everything wrong because it increases their protitability.
>>
>> There is just something fundamentally wrong and fishy about
>> all this. I even suspect that when unfortunate "accidents"
>> such as refinery fires occur, they may actually be staged
>> events so that somebody can manipulate the friggin'
>> "shortage" a little more.
>>
>> Anyway it's getting harder and harder to love automobiles
>> anymore.
>>
>> Sorry for the rant.
>> --
>> Paddy's Pig
>
> Exactly my sentiments on the subject.
>
If you simply followed the inflation line from the 1960s to now,
gas should be in the range of $4.75-5.50. And, if you look at the
progress in fuel efficiency of vehicles sold from when CAFE was
enacted in 1975 to today, you would see that its goal was
achieved, getting the fleet from about 11-13 mpg to 27.5 mpg. Of
course, there was a loophole for trucks. Now, consider that in
every year since 1975 except 2, total miles driven has steadily
increased and the size/weight of vehicles has increased as people
moved from smaller cars to trucks, SUVs, now bigger CUVs and
performance cars like my Charger. But, more importantly, they
moved farther out from the cities and close-in suburbs and thus
farther from work and shoppping. So, say what you like about
conspiracies of the oil companies or we went to war in Iraq for
oil or whathave you. Just remember the primary tenet of
microeconomics 101 - supply and demand. You wants it, you pays
for it. Everytime gas spikes 25 cents, there are new cries to
force the car companies to build more fuel efficient cars and
trucks, and more people suddently get religion and buy that
hybrid they've been admiring. Then, when prices settle back,
people forget all about being green and saving money, But,
beware, once the big bear in Washlincoln D.C. enacts a
replacement for CAFE it will become yet another of hundreds of
laws impossible to ever repeal and will result in tens of
thousands more lost American manufacturing jobs in all segments,
not just the car industry. I'll leave you with this thought: My
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T 383 Magnum was about a MSRP $5,000 car.
It had the usual toys for the day but not power windows or seats.
Gas was going up and down as stations had what were called gas
wars in those days but it was generally in the 25-45 cent range.
My 2007 Charger, granted with many more toys, stickered at just
under $36K - a 7X increase! - yet gas right now is $3.05 here, an
increase of about 6X. If I go to the high side and say that gas
is 50 cents, a 7X increase would be $3.50 but if I look at the
CPI for those years, I would see that the price should be in the
high $4 range. Need more be said?

As to not loving cars anymore, there's little evidence of that.
Remember when you first started driving? How many options did you
car have? Now, if you don't have PS, PB 4-wheel discs, auto
trans, A/C, tinted glass, 6 disc MP3 CD player, power windows,
power seats, leather, air bags all around, steel belted radial
tires, electronics galore including compass & temp, running MPG,
etc., perhaps a big engine, you don't even want the car. And, I'm
not talking about an upscale car, I'm talking about a Honda Civic
or Accord, a Saturn Aura, a Ford Fusion, a Chevy Malibu. Cars are
far, far cleaner than when you started driving, and you now
demand options only the upper crust bought on their Caddy,
Lincoln, or Imp in those days. Somebody has to pay for this. One
more thing to keep in mind: car companies whether domestic or
foreign do NOT pay the freight on mandated safety, emissions, or
CAFE upgrades, the BUYER pays. Little things add up, like low
tire pressure sensors now mandatory and a new law pending in
Congress to require power window switches so dumb mothers who
leave kids in the car cars with the key on and the kid strangles
in a window. Or, a new law being proposed to mandatorily show
running mpg so the driver can evaluate their driving habits.

Bottom line: if we want prices to go down - and remember folks,
our prices even at today's levels are only 2/3 what Europeans pay
- then WE must alter our driving habits. WE must stop buying
7,000 vehicles and drive alone shopping, WE must stop buying
unnecessarily large, powerful cars - and that include me - when a
smaller, more fuel efficient vehicle will do, and WE must stop
the rush to live in BFE doubling or tripling the distance
traveled to work or shop. There is NO conspiracy in any of this
save the collective stupidity of all of us buyers who want more
and more and more yet balk at the price it costs. Last item: I
was next to a Caddy Escalade SUV, the extended one like a Chevy
Suburban, at the gas station and asked the owner how he like it.
He said "it's a great vehicle, I just don't like paying $90 to
fill it up!" Well, Duh! You buy this huge vehicle that probably
cost $60K+, drive around town in it alone and you have the gall
to complain about the gas price? Dummy, didn't you know that
BEFORE you bought the truck?

--
HP, aka Jerry

Today, Mark E. Bye made these interesting comments ...

> These are exactly the same points I was making to a friend the
> other day when I went on my own rant about the oil industry.
> Specifically, that they are reaping record profits while they
> don't seem to plan for maintenance, repairs, or other
> improvements to their infrastructure.
>
> By the way, I live in northern Wisconsin and paid 3.349 for
> premium yesterday, which is the lowest price in my town for
> that grade. Wisconsin also has one of the highest gas taxes in
> the country. If your travels take you in this direction, my
> experience has been that prices in Minnesota, Iowa and
> Missouri are cheaper than they are here. YMMV in Illinois.
>
Premium was $3.35 yesterday here in MI. My 2007 Charger HEMI
burns mid-grade, which was $3.25. What car(s) do you own that
take premium and why do you think that the price is all that
high? I bought a performance car because that's what I WANT, not
what I need and I do NOT complain about the gas price. As I just
related to Blue Oval, on inflation alone, gas should be in the
high $4 range, so where is this giant conspiracy? As to profits,
isn't that the goal of a corporation? And, gas prices vary VERY
widely regionally for a number of reasons, but primarily
distribution from central locations and regional requirements for
blending the fuel for things like temperature or emissions. Want
to pay less? Drive less in a much more fuel efficient vehicle.

Think about it: in the mid-1960s when muscle cars ruled and gas
was cheap, maybe as low as 25 cents or as high as 50 cents, a
good yearly salary was $7-9,000 and those cars only cost $4K.
But, in the city you were lucky to get 5-6 mpg and even at
reasonable speeds on the highway, getting more than 7-9 mpg was
pretty difficult. Same was true for the really large cars with
large engines of the day. And, compared to the clean cars of
today replete with every safety feature possible, driving in the
1960s was a dirty affair and downright dangerous.

--
HP, aka Jerry

On Tue, 08 May 2007 08:08:32 -0500, Mark E. Bye >
wrote:


>
>These are exactly the same points I was making to a friend the other
>day when I went on my own rant about the oil industry. Specifically,
>that they are reaping record profits while they don't seem to plan for
>maintenance, repairs, or other improvements to their infrastructure.
>

>
>Mark

Mark,

I work for a major instrumentation supplier to the oil industry. Your
comments about not planning for maintenance, repairs, or other
improvements to their infrastructure is just incorrect. In NW Ohio
there are several larger refineries that I frequently call on. They
are constantly trying to improve the refining process by trying new
approaches in instrumentation.

Sometimes a refinery has a "turn-around" to bring a unit down for
maintenance. Usually a once per year process. This turn around costs
the oil company a huge sum of money and lost production time. The
costs of the items that must be replaced is also escalating. (Seen the
price of copper recently?) Refining crude to gasoline is one of the
most expensive and corrosive processes that I deal with, but one that
we still currently need.

I live in SW Ohio and the lower grade gas is $3.15 right now. I must
agree with Jerry about that being "cheap" by comparison to anything
else. Compare the inflated cost from 1960 to 2007 of almost any
product and today's prices are higher, but the increase in the cost of
a gallon of gas is low by comparison.

Not being argumentative Mark, just pointing out some of the costs of
doing business for an oil refinery.

Have a good week.

RS......... Tony

I am not an expert on this subject, but I did see this chart of historic
American gas prices adjusted for inflation.
With a few exceptions, Canadian gas prices are also historically higher than
American, basically because of our higher taxes at the pump.
It was $1.05.5 / litre this morning and the Canadian dollar is pegged at
..9048 American.
The price/litre would then convert to 95.5¢ / litre American
One American gallon = 3.7854 ltres
Price in Canada of an American gallon in American dollars = .955 x 3.7854 =
$3.61.5

Oops - $106.6 / litre

"vintage" > wrote in message
...
>I am not an expert on this subject, but I did see this chart of historic
>American gas prices adjusted for inflation.
> With a few exceptions, Canadian gas prices are also historically higher
> than American, basically because of our higher taxes at the pump.
> It was $1.05.5 / litre this morning and the Canadian dollar is pegged at
> .9048 American.
> The price/litre would then convert to 95.5¢ / litre American
> One American gallon = 3.7854 ltres
> Price in Canada of an American gallon in American dollars = .955 x 3.7854
> = $3.61.5
>
>
>
>

On Tue, 8 May 2007 12:29:25 -0400, "vintage" > Amazingly
Replied without Prejudice below:

:>I am not an expert on this subject, but I did see this chart of historic
:>American gas prices adjusted for inflation.
:>With a few exceptions, Canadian gas prices are also historically higher than
:>American, basically because of our higher taxes at the pump.
:>It was $1.05.5 / litre this morning and the Canadian dollar is pegged at
:>.9048 American.
:>The price/litre would then convert to 95.5¢ / litre American
:>One American gallon = 3.7854 ltres
:>Price in Canada of an American gallon in American dollars = .955 x 3.7854 =
:>$3.61.5
:>
:>
Hey Fred, I don't remember the price being any where near that in the 50's,
not saying you're wrong, but I can remember it going for 17.9 a gallon.

Mike

I have no idea Mike. Also, remember that those prices are adjusted for
inflation.

"24Bit®" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 8 May 2007 12:29:25 -0400, "vintage" > Amazingly
> Replied without Prejudice below:
>
> :>I am not an expert on this subject, but I did see this chart of historic
> :>American gas prices adjusted for inflation.
> :>With a few exceptions, Canadian gas prices are also historically higher
> than
> :>American, basically because of our higher taxes at the pump.
> :>It was $1.05.5 / litre this morning and the Canadian dollar is pegged at
> :>.9048 American.
> :>The price/litre would then convert to 95.5¢ / litre American
> :>One American gallon = 3.7854 ltres
> :>Price in Canada of an American gallon in American dollars = .955 x
> 3.7854 =
> :>$3.61.5
> :>
> :>
> Hey Fred, I don't remember the price being any where near that in the
> 50's,
> not saying you're wrong, but I can remember it going for 17.9 a gallon.
>
> Mike